Thursday, July 26, 2007

Mombian Spaz Attack


Becky Although she is the most important thing in my life, I do not spend a lot of time blogging about my daughter or parenting. One of the reasons is that I spend an awful lot of time up to my neck in the subject, and I actually do have other interests.

I also think it is kinda boring for everyone else. And I am certainly not qualified to advise anyone on the issues.

But today we had a perfect Mombian Storm, and my daughter was at the center of it.

lindsay passed out The backdrop is this whole Lindsay Lohan/Britney Spears thing. I , like every other parent in America, am willing to cut off my right arm, if it would guarantee that my child never morphs into a troubled brat like those girls. I am realistic enough to know my powers are limited. I have seen fantastic parents with kids that broke their heart. And there are the lugheads who have raised a brain surgeon.

Nonetheless, it is disturbing, and I will do anything to avoid a fate like that, even though these kids come without any guarantees or warranties of any kind.

Anyway that has been in the back of my mind.

Today I had to get some office type items, so I ran into Walmart. Now, I do not generally patronize Communist China's largest retail outlet. But since I am now living out in the desert, kind of in the middle of nowhere, it is the closest thing to a mall, within a fifteen minute drive.

Of course, there were only two checkers and the line was twenty deep, not counting all the snot nosed kids—several of which belonged to the harried Mom in front of me. One of the little tykes picked up a toy car and asked Mom if he could have it. She told him next time. I saw the little shit pick it up and put it behind his back.

stupid momI followed them out of the store and the kid was still clutching his stolen merchandise. I am not an officious intermeddler, but I sincerely thought the lady might care that her son was starting out on a life of crime. So I spoke up. Big mistake. The bitch practically tore my head off, and the kid got to keep his ill begotten toy.

So that was the mind set when I got home.

Here in Arizona we are in the midst of the Monsoon Season. During this time of year warm air moves in from the gulf. During the day it is cooked in the desert heat and it results in sporadic and isolated deluges with thunder and lightening and all that fun stuff.

It also causes flash floods. There are dried river and stream beds that become torrents within minutes.

We have a gully nearby and I have given strict instructions there is to be no playing there under any circumstances.

So I am watching TV and there is a report of a twelve year old girl who nearly drowned yesterday in one of these flash floods cos she was playing in the dry riverbed. In walks Melanie with my daughter. She'd been busted down in the gully.

Mom got a little more than hysterical.

Sometimes around here I joke about spanking, but what happened next was not amusing for anyone.

Mom spankingIn my mind the behavior clearly called for, what in our home is, the ultimate thermonuclear punishment—a pants down spanking with the back of a hairbrush.

I know I will probably be criticized, but gosh darn it, I am going to do what ever I can come up with to keep my child alive. And maybe I did spaz out a bit, but it is a whole lot better than the Trash Mom I met at Walmart.

The miscreant is now confined to quarters, and seems quite repentant.

mean MomAnd if she is as smart as I think she is, she will stay that way:)

Now I am going to go fix a pitcher of Margaritas.
BeckyBecky

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54 Comments:

Blogger Dane Wayen's location: said...

Just my humble opinion.

1) I think it was a mistake for you to approach the mother of the little thief.

While your intentions were well meaning, now that little shit has really got the wrong message. What the saying no good deed goes unpunished, lol.

It would have been best to tell the Wal-mart people and let them handle it or not. If the thief's mother went Defcon Five on them, I'm sure they could have reviewed security tape to prove the kind walked out with the toy without paying.

2) I'm pro-spanking, too, so I think you did right with your daughter, not that you have to hear that from me.

Some kids, people, are just "wired” in the way they are going to be regardless of the "right" efforts parents have made on the child's behalf.

In the mid-sixties my mother raised three boys, alone. The oldest brother was stricken with mental retardation as a result of an allergy to a polio vaccine he received at six months old.

The middle brother given every break in the world is mad at the world because he's not where or what he would like to be at this point in his life (he's 50).

My mother has felt heartbroken and guilt-ridden that for decades the middle brother has had absolutely no contact with her because he blamed her for his station in life.

I tell her she's nuts. She didn't ever whore around. She didn't leave us in a dumpster somewhere.

And while she may have made some mistakes from time to time, who doesn’t? We all do.

After 18 and certainly after 25, we can be whatever we want to be if we put our mind to it.

It's on him, my brother, that he's not what he would like to be.

Parents, mothers and fathers can do everything or almost everything right and sometimes still fail in the upbringing of their children.

You do the best you can and if your heart is pure, you're not a failure at child rearing.

At least that's how I feel.

I think your daughter may have a sore heiny but she knows why she was spanked and what she did wrong.

Neither the Wal-mart thief nor his loser mother has a clue to what is wrong about their behavior exactly because, in my mind, it seems nobody gave them a red heiny.

Respectfully,
DW

P.S. Oh yeah, and I think all those people of my generation that say spanking (with verbal communication why there was a spanking) is harmful to a Child's psyche are full of shit.

6:58 PM  
Blogger Layla said...

It is refreshing to hear another woman/parent/mother say that they spanked their kid. Kids need this from time to time.

I am not trying to be coy or cute or even catty, but the Bible does say, "spare the rod - spoil the child." I do believe there is much truth to that.

Good for you - and you may have saved your daughter life and taught her a valuable lesson, when you play you pay----so follow the rules and hopefully be safe and stay out of harms way and no spankings.

Simple.

I hate these people that say hitting a child, spanking, or slapping on the hand is teaching abuse. Yeah right. It is discipline and if it is abuse then turn off and or stop producing horror flicks, chuckie kills flicks, Texas Masacre flicks, or whatever.

That is abuse, not corporal punishment or spanking.

As for the WalMart bitch---spit! It is her loss! If that were you telling me it was my kid ripping off a store, any store, I would kiss the ground you walk on. Better be embarrassed for 5 minutes than see that kid in prison for half a lifetime!

You go girlfriend!

7:13 PM  
Blogger Becky C. said...

Thanks Layla,

I know the issue of spanking is as controversial as the existence of God, or global warming:) So I don't generally mention it as a serious topic.

I do think it is significant the Bible recommends spanking. And I think it significant that it was the parenting norm until the 1960's.

I have actually studied some of the literature and research on this. The studies which have found that spanking will make your child into a violent psychopath and is the cause of much of the world's woes, is actually quite flawed from a methodological and statistical standpoint. These studies are at best inconclusive. And most of the researchers have actually admitted this and fall back on the intuitive belief that spanking is barbaric and will make children violent.

There are actually a couple of much better formulated and conducted studies that conclude there is no evidence spanking causes violence and is actually the BEST way to get kids to comply with their parent's wishes (in comparison with other forms of punishment such as time outs)

Of course, no one ever hears about those studies since the media and the pop psychologists have an agenda.

I think, everyone is also concerned, rightly, about child abuse. But there is no evidence that spanking causes abuse. What is true is that abusive parents abuse their kids with ALL types of discipline, including spanking.

Someday I should do a series of blog posts on this stuff, I do have the notes--but it is kinda of boring--and also makes sane people go nuts.

But, I do think younger parents are spanking more than their parents did. My feeling about this was confirmed by a recent poll.

I think a lot of us are just sick of all the spoiled bratty kids and the Super Nanny nonsense--and believe that the social no-spanking experiment of the 1950's has been an utter failure.

Now, I am sure my friend Jon will be showing up--to thoroughly chew my ass over this opinion--as he has before:)

~Becky

7:40 PM  
Blogger Morris said...

Wow, you sure stuck it out there. To those of us with kids, this topic is worse than politics and religion together!
It's late for me (gotta be up in 6.5 hrs), I'll try to stay coherent.
Please take what people may say with a 'grain of salt'. The one fact that studies and surveys and polls all have in common, and that we all tend to overlook, is that they're only a snapshot of reality. Your relationship with your daughter is your own.
I've seen a lot and there are ALL-KINDS. The worst kids I've seen come from families where there is just no rational thought what-so-ever. They are just plain crazy. We want people to have a license to drive a car but any nut-case can have kids. We leave them alone 'cause it's their right. My God, they need HELP, and our society is not conducive to helping anyone without some cash!
I've known people that were raised rough, and some that were never touched. They're both OK.
But the worst I've seen is for whatever reason, kids grow up without a purpose in life. You know, like 'what are we here for', what's the point kind of thing.
In closing (end of rant), your daughter is learning more from you that you may know. Give her big hugs and show her how proud you are of her acomplishments.

8:44 PM  
Blogger Working Girl said...

Technorati is neither updating my posts or my "authority." MFers. I thought it was just me. Maybe its just you and me.

The Walmart brat? Even though there was a bad outcome, I think you did right by doing something. We can't all just sit around being fucking barnacles.

8:49 PM  
Blogger Becky C. said...

I knew this topic would get people steamed up--it is argued endlessly on the parenting boards--and the same things are said by both sides, uwhich have been said a zillion times.

I don't want to come across as the world's foremost corporal punishment propronet.

But, when discussing it I think it important to know that there is an unproven hypothesis behind the no-spanking argument, as I outlined in the previous way too long comment.

If parents feel intuitively that spanking is ineffective, counter-productive , makes kids violent, encourages abuse of children, etc. that is fine with me. Intelligent people believe that.

I respect the opinion of those people and in fact, believe that parental intuition is a valid reason to make a conclusion on this subject.

But,what should be understood is there is no real scientific evidence to back up those contentions.

~Becky

9:11 PM  
Blogger One Wacky Mom said...

Becky, I think this was a brilliant post. I agree with you 100%. Kids need spanked. Period.

I see the results of an "entitled nation" and that is sad.

11:16 PM  
Blogger One Wacky Mom said...

However, I should say...after a certain age...spanking is useless.

Kids need to know there are boundarires and clearly understand cause and effect.

It's the example you have set, the words you have used and the message you have consistently sent that develops their character. But you already know that.

11:19 PM  
Anonymous Marda Butler said...

i totally enjoyed your post... how about a pic of your daughter, come on you need to introduce us to your family...

have a lovely day..
with love
Marda

11:37 PM  
Blogger Becky C. said...

Marda, I have posted her pic a while back. Actually I have been kind of paranoid about spreading her mug around. But it is probably a bit of over zealous protection on my part.

Now if I had tried to take a pic today I am quite sure you would not have seen her usual sunny face--maybe even a tongue sticking out.

But stay tuned--I'll post something one of these days.

~Becky

11:44 PM  
Blogger One Wacky Mom said...

Becky, you already got my vote!

11:55 PM  
Anonymous Sherrie said...

I don't have kids so I can't really comment, but I was smacked on the bottom and just the threat of it afterwards was enough to keep me in line. ;-) And I still credit the occasional spanking to my equating "all my actions have a reaction, some will be bad." I like to think it makes me a less whiny person today. But then who knows. :-P

But I am enough of a vindictive bitch that I would've mentioned something as soon as I saw the kid leaving so if mom went psycho bat at me I could have had Wal Mart take care of it out of spite. So maybe no one should listen to me. ;-)

1:30 AM  
Blogger Becky C. said...

Hi Sherrie--I agree--I took away the same lesson as a kid.

Hi Ev, I also agree that kids (at least the vast majority) do need to be spanked. I have actually come to believe it is quite important. I know this is heresy--but, as I also mentioned, I also think that is changing with a lot of younger parents.

And I also agree after being rebuked by that Mother I should have gone to security--but I was actually so dumbfounded someone would react that way I didn't know what to do.

~Becky

1:53 AM  
Blogger stormin said...

no criticism from me Becky. i am a big fan of corporal punishment, being the recipient of it in my childhood. nothing else got the point across like my dad's belt across the ass. the one thing i have learned though in today's society is never disipline the kids in public, only in the privacy of your own home.

5:25 AM  
Anonymous meleah rebeccah said...

I agree as well. I have only spanked my son ONCE in 11 years. but he will never forget it, and neither will I. he will also NEVER do what he did to get spanked to begin with..and isn't that the point!

(PS: I love thunderstorms and pouring rain)

(PPS: I hate Walmart! I'm a Target chick)

7:56 AM  
Blogger Becky C. said...

Wow--I checked the comments this morning and figured I would have been "thoroughly taken over the knee" by now.

I am gratified to find so many folks giving a ditto, especially since many of you are pretty darn hip Moms:)

But I don't want anyone ever to be reluctant to contradict me, and I know there are plenty on this subject. Feelings on this subject are more intense than almost anything else--which I do find odd--since the vast majority of parents, regardless of their views on spanking, really are trying to do their very best in all ways (with the exception of some Walmart shoppers).

~Becky

8:20 AM  
Blogger Lori- Fairytales & Margaritas said...

I think you were totally right, it both instances. We are very similar in that I would have said something to that WalMart bitch too. Too bad she isn't a good role model for her child. It only takes one little instance like that for kids to learn a whole lot. I work at the juvenile court and I see these kids every day! Damn enabling parents!
And you already know we spank. Especially in dangerous situations like that. I bet your daughter will think twice before going in the wash again. (BTW, people around here will think you're weird if you call it a gully, hee hee) Don't you just love monsoons? They are one of my favorite things about AZ.

8:46 AM  
Blogger stormin said...

Wow--I checked the comments this morning and figured I would have been "thoroughly taken over the knee" by now.

that's because we're always told by the liberal talking heads in the MSM that our thoughts and views just aren't the norm and that we're the ones in the minority. i get sick and tired of news organizations (Fox News included) who love to show video from security cameras of parents disciplining their children for bad behaviour and then branding the parents as child abusers.

8:46 AM  
Blogger Becky C. said...

I shall not refer to gullies again:) I did know the term "wash" but all the ones I have seen labeled with this were bigger than this one.

I am willing to bet good money my daughter will not venture into that wash again. And I hope the idea ,that on those times when I am very specific and emphatic, it is not an optional thing.

I do love the Monsoons--but not sure all members of our family do:)

~Becky

9:33 AM  
Anonymous b.s. said...

Becky, I can't say that I agree with your tactics. I was spanked quite a bit as a kid, and it never stopped me from continuing my deviant behavior. Granted, my behavior was never that deviant, but as the case with your child, it was more just stupidity, and not understanding the consequences of my actions. Getting spanked for it will not necessarily stop the ignorance. I bet the child that stole the item from Wal Mart has been spanked quite a bit in his lifetime.

Now, I am not anti-spanking, I just think it should be a last resort. If I could suggest something that we've found works with our kids, you might find it a suitable option. If one of our children crosses that line of disobeying us, we have them retrieve one of their cherished toys so that we can either throw it away, or better yet, bring it to Goodwill or similar organization that helps the unfortunate.

While spanking gives a sharp reminder to the kid, the thought of getting spanked fades quickly. But take a favorite toy away (or, as in the case of our daughter, a favorite CD), and this lingers in them quite a while. It has worked quite well for us.

I'll never forget the look on our girl's face when my wife told her to march to her room and get her favorite CD (one of Cher's recent ones at the time). Not only did she cringe in horror as the CD was snapped in half, but we never had to listen to that shit again (why is she still trying to make music!). Double benefit without the guilt!

Spanking has it's place, and if done when cool-headed, it can be effective. But so many times we strike in anger, and that is the message the child hears. The lesson we are trying to impart may not always be heard.

9:35 AM  
Blogger morinn said...

woow you sure did get a good response out of this post.
i don't know what i would have done to prevent my child from putting his/her life at risk (coz i havent got any child yet) but i'm sure it would have been pretty much the same thing.
"I am going to do what ever I can come up with to keep my child alive" that was so cute! ;)

9:55 AM  
Blogger Dane Wayen's location: said...

I think this is an excellent topic and I don't think it can be discussed to death. From what I see while observing other peoples children in public, for the most part, there seems to be a real lack of discipline by virtue of the behavior of many children in public.

The posts you've precipitated on this topic are very interesting.

There are many ways people can calibrate success in life. As far as I'm concerned the best indication of a successful life is raising children that grow up to be generous adults who aren't opposed to working hard, have manners and have respect and compassion for others.

On a clip of Oprah, I saw a black woman that some would say had very limited resources yet raised a number of boys on her own and who grew up to be very well adjusted adults. When I get back from this weeks road trip, I'll find her name and post it. I think parents sharing methods is a great thing.


Respectfully,
DW

10:55 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I JUST had a conversation with my mom's 78 year old husband who credits his father with keeping him from smoking. How did his father influence him? He caught him smoking one day and knocked him out. When he came to, the desire to smke had totally left him. Perhaps the bare-bottom brush-handle spanking will have the same effect on your daughter.

My sister-in-law told me years ago that I shouldn't spank my kids because it teaches them violence. She never spanked hers. They now beat her up for drug money. My 2 teens, on the other hand, are respectful, obedient and fun to be with. Funny how the non-spanked kids became violent and the spanked ones became responsible. Psychology sucks.

E-Babe
http://amodicumofdecorum.blogspot.com/

12:32 PM  
Blogger Jon said...

Becky,

The most pleasant sharing about your blog today is your mention of Melanie. It suggests a continued close loving relationship in a family unit setting ongoing. I do wonder how your children have accepted your new open expression of your orientation? I hope it’s going well?

Warning to Becky’s blog readers here today, my comment is long, as I’ve had some discussion "history" with Becky about spanking do to my own personal issues. Just skip my comments if you find this tedious or boring. I mean to insult NO one. I’m sharing more information than I desire to but felt a need to sharing my many thoughts in response to Becky’s anticipation of my reactions. I’ll hopefully be understood and end further comment out of personal anxieties.

The web address to stories I’ll share here in my comments I find personally disturbing to me. I offer it only for understanding my issues and me.

Becky, I apologize to you for being too harsh in judging your punishment practices. I believe you have the highest care giving intent. I'm honored that you still address me a cyber friend given my strong judgments of your pro-spanking practices. Thanks for tolerating me. I regret if I've offended you! I ask for your forgiveness. I understand discipline with spanking as punishment is a very important parental function for you and it's almost magical radical power as a tool to be a good parent in your opinion.
My comments are just a bit more therapy for me to share pent up fears and anxieties on this subject from my past.
I understand the compelling nature of spanking punishment as being a method you admire in managing your children’s behavior, which does so by inflicting physical and ultimately emotional pain upon them. The pain experience being perceived as temporary for the child makes it appear effective and safe. In such a context it might be. But when it's goes beyond temporary, I feel it disturbs a part of a person if that occurs. I personally live rather newly with a conflicting duality of feeling emotional pleasantness and horror with spanking.

Until I admitted a denied fetish with spanking to myself I'd been able to just deliberately block out my trauma memories from childhood.

As I've explored and played somewhat with my very reluctant wife my fetish element desires have triggered blocked trauma memories and they’ve come raging back from a very murky past quite vividly.

I think your a great mother and woman. I compassionately understand your orientation and view it very tenderly. The idea of co-female emotional and sexual passion is beautiful, be it bi or gay. Still I find you attractive like many others on your blog for many different reasons on many different levels as a person unto yourself!

Your dominant controlling personality is likely attractive to me because your parenting style certainly reminds me of my own mother's. LOL! That's likely not an appealing thought for many but for some men it's just a sexy dynamic they like.

My issues with child spanking are not new to you, but perhaps more sharing can shed better understanding? I believe I was just unfortunate, do to a very tender innate timid personality as a child, to have been made to receive the "standard" customary parent punishment of the time from my mother. Being a first born, I was the poster child of discipline as a means of proving to be a good mother to my mother’s most critical peers, her own mother, aunts, and sisters.

Let me share that while my childhood spankings obviously were traumatic for me personally, by the average definition they weren't severe.

I think for myself continued ignorance on the subject would have been better. Learning from internet sharing that real people acted on spanking fetishes with some like myself preferring it expressed in a real discipline context, and then coming to grips with understanding how real parents spank as punishment, some as an only method, and some using very severe methods, has been shocking and troubling.

From my perspective, admittedly subjective, there is a conflict of interest between a parent that spanks for the best intentions of their child but who has a spanking fetish. One interferes with bias upon the other.

I've heard many parents who admit having a spanking fetish that staunchly defend they objectively separate the two. I don't believe that's possible personally for a spanking fetish is more than sexual arousal. It contains elements of sadism and masochism. Many view those terms in a sexual context only, I do not. Enjoying the emotions of physical overpowerment for purposes of physical violence, excused as punishment for child training, still holds elements of pleasant satisfaction regardless of the sexual energy question. Your own anger feelings of being challenged in your control of you’re daughter were satisfied with your infliction of pain upon her. Your sense of moral, spiritual, cultural, and perhaps gender stereotype gives you permission to do this and feel good while you spank her. I view it as a very sophisticated form of denying self-pleasure from the infliction of violently produced pain for the good of the punished recipient. This parent action is the original cradle in a family to make physical violence feel satisfying as governing justice and socially acceptable. All of it mirrors societies social structure but a king and queen in the home write the laws and there are no checks and balances to abuse of power except good conscience. A conflict of interests doesn’t even need to be fetish influenced, but as simple and as subtle as a feeling of a stronger desire to manage and control a child’s behavior using spanking to a point of excess. Excess being highly subjective admittedly with or without a conscience!

I’m quite certain your own sense of spirituality, morality, and parental nurturing ground your self-perceived objectivity. But emotions are a part of desire so when you spank someone there will be those pleasant emotional feelings denied or enjoyed in winning dominant power of forcing another’s will into submission even in the context of real parental punishment spanking while inflicting pain upon them. The emotional response from a punished child rewards a parent with a feeling of success and control. Spanking I feel is more rewarding for the parent than other forms of passive punishment once that power is felt as pleasant. The change in power and control of behavior is immediate. But no matter how altruistically the purpose is rationalized it’s still raw animal instinct.

Regardless of the “animal” side of corporal punishment I sense a common appreciation as a parent for teaching the virtue of obedience AND I sense your loving appreciation of your mother to use spanking as punishment of you in childhood to demotivate bad behavior with pain as a consequence for building the virtue of a conscience. You’re view of “discipline” as a euphemism for spanking when there are many other modes to correct misbehavior, if consistently used by parents, is so narrow it invites suspicion of some ulterior motive even if it’s simply a more satisfying do to the immediacy and therefore perceived a more effective form of control. Your disapproval of child spoiled brats, and people in general that violate rules, and your enjoyment with teaching all demonstrate that you value fairness and justice obviously is part of your parenting value system. I admire your desire to teach this virtue in today’s discipline less society but for my own reasons I can’t accept the use of high degrees of physical and emotional pain to develop it. Our disagreement is in the degree of unpleasantness of the punishment not the use of punishment. I sense a bias to use as much unpleasantness in punishment that will not have lasting harm. I’m not sure you realize you generalize emotional pain as being safe for all children when you chose to advocate spanking.

As for my personal issues, I've obviously adapted and toughened with maturity to survive the normal competitiveness of adult society, but my Highly Sensitive Personality, still with me, is a God given genetic trait in about 15-20% of the population. Because of this I couldn't handle the standard harshness of spanking punishment as a child and I experienced unbearable trauma from it.

I believe the goal of inflicting pain with spanking is to force a negative deliberate loss of emotional control in the child to shock their sense of self-ego, power and governance psychologically thereby forcing a changed in their behavior. But when a parent does this do they confidently believe their children are immune to unbearable trauma from the act? This is my problem with pro-spanking parents, not being aware of the danger of unbearable trauma from spanking of some children when they endorse it generically.

Such unbearable trauma can create a psychological damage called dissociative disorder.

I'll cite the psychologist expert on the highly sensitive personality trait to describe how it's experienced by that personality which is more prone.

Dr. Arron writes,

" A Little Course In Trauma.
Another term for unbearable emotion is emotional trauma, which seems like an overused word, but perhaps is not–unbearable emotions are more common that one thinks, just because of how hard it can be to remember them due to protective forgetting. But I do not wish to employ “trauma” or “traumatic” just for effect–they deserve a specific definition.

All negative emotions are a response to a sense of threat to one’s physical or psychological “integrity” or wholeness (from which comes the word “health”). Broken bodies and dissociated, numb, or psychotic minds have lost their integrity. We are
strongly motivated to avoid such a breaking up. Stress is anything that might be leading to that disaster. Trauma results when the integrity is actually lost.

We all understand physical trauma, but trauma due to the falling apart of a mind may be harder to grasp unless you have experienced it. It might be described as “the end of the world,” “falling apart,” “falling endlessly,” or being “pulled apart. The heart “breaking.” Having a nervous “breakdown.” The effect on thinking is that we can’t. Or we can’t think of anything else. We may not even be able to respond–we simply freeze. But soon, during or after, our defenses arise and attempt to isolate the experience, as if cordoning off the scene with yellow police tape. For example, during traumas people often describe watching themselves from outside their bodies, like an observer–this further protects them from the pain. And sometimes the shift from being in the body to being an observe takes place later, still as a defense. Think of any trauma you may have experienced. Do you relive it from inside or outside of your body? My hunch is that HSPs, (highly sensitive people) more often become observers.

What aspect for myself was the root of my trauma?

If your still reading this long comment I'll will now have described by example my source of trauma in the descriptions of real mothers spanking children from their shared perspectives. I'll cite two blog sites that describe expertly the psychological punishment factors they carefully employ when spanking and then one story by a young woman who shared how she was spanked by both her parents severely for swearing yet at age 18. In chatting with her shortly after she wrote her story she told me she found nothing unusual in her parent’s punishment techniques with corporal punishment. If the address doesn’t work let me know.

site 1. http://ca.blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-sP4zTQgia6dshIXoz_y86mv177f74w8-?cq=1

site 2. http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-tLADhtEib6OvqSk9l0i56GIb

shocking story site 3.
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-ZpUvrvkwaK4zG9aIUyWkmw--?cq=1&l=11&u=15&mx=16&lmt=5
You'll need to page down to her blog entry titled: Entry for August 02, 2006.

I'd be interested to learn from pro-spanking parents here after reading these examples of spanking incidents if you approve of sexual humiliation of children as punishment? If not, how do you know with complete certainty your not creating those feelings in your child since it’s only your own perception of the experience. I speculate most spanking parents believe their child is merely experiencing some desired embarrassment in being punished when spanked and they’re not psychologically creating unbearable trauma? The subjectivity of a child’s punishment experience is only really accurately perceived by the child with their unique personality and is not that of a parent’s memory of their own child punishment experiences for they are different people than their children.

The shy timid child within me at the time was no match for bare spanking’s effective deliberate humiliation. Humiliations that, remembered now, felt sexually humiliating and thus sexually violating in nature. I can’t say I know what the emotional pain of rape is, but feeling such humiliation because of the forced nature of exposure was certainly experienced like losing control of one’s own sexual privacy.
For pro spanking parents who teach children not to feel ashamed of nudity and who don’t model, as you apparently haven’t Becky, with an over-prudish sense of modesty of the body it's likely not a concern for spanking punishment. Your daughter may only perceive punishment as embarrassing, but that’s likely not true of your son.

Even same gender parent child spanking may still feel sexually embarrassing, especially for post pubescent teenagers, and I wonder if prospanking parents deliberately ignore this issue or are blind to it? If such an act is done forcefully upon an adult it’s considered a crime that’s legally punishable. How ironic the rights of a child.

For my very shy emotionally sensitive self, it was torture beyond punishment.

Perhaps pro-spanking advocates will condemn my mother for her ignorance with my own experience? I’d only state the use of spanking in my childhood predates the sexual revolution days and the attitudes about nudity where linked to sexuality. It’s odd for me to think of pro-spanking parents forcing their child of post pubescent age to expose their genitals to them and then worry about this same child being sexually active with today’s attitudes about sex. Yes, two different contexts but the same substance. Again how ironic.

It seems two choices, if some children are at risk of being traumatized ban the practice, or accept you might hurt for life some children, but hope and pray without ever knowing for sure that you haven’t impacted their sense of healthy sexuality, fetish or not!

The web address sites I shared above described real life factual details of ritual, slow deliberate, humiliation to be used as emotional punishment before the physical punishment begins. Those examples create real fear in me in one horrific thoughtful moment and yet hold strong fetish feelings of being loved and cared for from the parental nurturing found even in punishment and it’s means to create accountability and the assuage of feelings of guilt.



As for your justification and defense with a Biblical argument.

Professor Murray Straus writes,

"The Bible Tells Parents To Spank. Some opponents of spanking believe that the biblical reference to “the rod” refers to a shepherd’s rod that is used to guide sheep, not to hit them. My less-than-expert knowledge of the Old Testament leads me to believe that it does refer to CP. In fact, the Old Testament goes much further than endorsing hitting children with a stick. Leviticus 20.19 says "All who curse father or mother shall be put to death." Deuteronomy 22.12 says "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard. Then all men of the town shall stone him to death."
“Parents or religious leaders who justify their use of CP on the basis of believing in a literal interpretation of the Bible obviously engage in selective literalism because they do not advocate executing stubborn, rebellious, or gluttonous children. Moreover, they seem to ignore the New Testament. Jesus was committed to love and forgiveness as both the means and the end of human relationships. It is hard to imagine Jesus recommending hitting a child as a means of correction.”

Becky, lastly I wish to share I've enlisted some expert help for myself to explore and work through the conflict that’s been forced to my consciousness. I struggle having both trauma and fetish feelings. Having both is difficult.

I’m certain the contexts of your children’s experiences with spanking are quite different if they are as strong willed and not highly sensitive personalities. I hope and always pray this is so. I also hope this exposing truth litany is buried by its length. J

Jon

5:12 PM  
Blogger Becky C. said...

I think I mentioned Jon would chew my ass. I was right-- I now have no ass:)

~Becky

5:18 PM  
Blogger Ad Tracker said...

A mom's got to do what a mom's got to do. A mother's primary job in this world is to get her kids to adulthood alive any way she can. A close second is to prepare them for adulthood. It sounds to me like the spanking you administered worked well for both purposes. You changed a dangerous behaviour pattern and taught that actions have consequenses. It sounds to me like you're a good and loving mom. Your daughter will thank you one day. Good for you. :-)

And no, technorati is not updating me. :(

9:13 PM  
Blogger Becky C. said...

Ad tracker,

thanx, as I said in the personal message to you--I think it is signifigant that all the women who have commented here have seen the value of spanking--even those who are not yet mothers. The naysayers have all been men.

I wonder if there is some kind of maternal intuition at work here. It would be interesting to see some polls on the issue broken down by gender.

And Jon--I am serious--you now have the record for the longest comment ever on this blog--and have left Meleah Rebeccah's hilarious comment on the taming of the beaver in the dust:)

~Becky

11:36 PM  
Blogger Jon said...

I'm only disappointed in the silence to the long explaination of issues. To me it indicates women, as mothers, consider sexual humiliation, especially cross gender, that forces nudity and genital exposure for spanking purposes and punishment is emotionally safe for the child.

Yes, ones cultural conditioning regarding nudity can affect that sense of sexual violation, but the custom of spanking being deeply embedded in cultural history and the fact it's a mother/child caregiving act among children of different ages masks the potentially deep emotional impact on male sexual ego, perhaps of us highly sensitive men?

Maybe women as mothers intuitively feel male ego bruising from sexual humiliation is a way to demonstrate and uncondition some of a boy's learn male entitlement predjudice attitudes to teach gender equality? Is sexual humiliation needed to do that?
It's been stated to me by more than one woman that they believe women are effected less by humiliation than men. I've no evidence of this but if it's a source of unwitting damage to a male's sexual self image for some men than rather than sexually humiliating for punishment mothers ought to condsider how it will effect their son's relationships with other women when they reach adulthood.

I'm just surprised the prospanking comments of women didnt' consider it an issue of concern. Obviously age of boy is relevent to the humiliation factor.

I wonder if mothers feel comfortable with fathers spanking their preteen and older daughters with genital exposure and nudity and how that would effect their daughters? It's not seemingly an issue so perhaps sexual humiliation isn't experienced by girls/ women? Just digging in an area most consider taboo where sexuality of a child meets a parent. Too bad my time exploring and explaining is considered trivial. I thought mothers would care more about the sexual emotions of their children than ignoring it an issue when forcing nudity for punishment.

7:21 AM  
Blogger Becky C. said...

I dunno Jon. Sometimes when you have to talk too much it just means you're wrong--besides on expertise in taking care of kids--women generally do have the edge--and so far, they are of one mind here:)

~Becky

8:47 AM  
Blogger Jon said...

So Becky, you support sexual humiliation as punishment of a boy?

Saying I'm wrong makes me believe so. This doesn't go against Christain spritual beliefs in anyway for you?

9:16 AM  
Blogger Jon said...

I may have to accept that mothers feel sexual humiliation is safe punishment when spanking sons by the silence on the challege. My protracted comments are not the single source of objection. I'll just copy the comment of a mother who has experience with the negative effects of sexual humiliation of a child.

Listed below:

A pro-spanking mother’s blog on her spanking technique,


“For one thing, in my experiences, boys respond to humiliation more than girls. I assume this has a little to do with the fact that he is bared before an opposite gender parent. But I don't think that's all of it. For the boy in puberty and beyond, being forcibly bared or being expected to bare his body below the waist is usually a face-reddening experience. And the older the boy, the more humiliating is the act of baring and of positioning for punishment. Being drawn over and held across a lap... bottom bared and ready...can be the ultimate humiliation for a macho teen, in and of itself. This emotional punishment for many a modest boy may well be the more effective deterrent rather than the actual physical sting of the spanking itself. But the over-the-knee spanking is so often associated with the kiddie spanking, that its use on teenage boys provides the ultimate message for pointing out their immaturity. And if by chance juvenile positioning and nudity in front of the punishing parents proves to be ineffective, then surely such an exhibition in the presence of offended family members, relatives, friends, or visiting family company will surely do the trick.

I punish my daughter differently and in private, but I will post that next.”

One woman’s response comment to the above blog, she’s a mother who has experienced difficulties in a relationship with a man who experienced sexual humiliation as a child.


· shamr…
· Offline IM
I'm not judging at all as i am one who was spanked well into adulthood , but what I have learned in my adult years in psychology and as a mom of 3 sons has been that this type of humiliation most often will affect them in relationships later or their attitude about themselves or their mates. I married someone who was treated this way and he was a puss. I could not respect him.

Your fello mom's silent consent to sexual humiliation is NOT unnanimous.

10:38 AM  
Blogger Becky C. said...

Jon, this is the last I am going to say anything about this subject for a LONG LONG time--but I really don't think exposing a kid's butt to their Mom for a minute or two is really all that traumatic--if so, we gotta do something about all that diaper changing:)

~Becky

11:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm one of the ones that left after your post on immigration that you are just so very wrong on, and made mention of a drop of readership after you had posted it. Anyway, For some unknown reason I decided to see if you still existed today, and I find this.
I guess as with us all you are just trying to do the best we can with what we have to work with. And you are so very right on the cp issue. Disobedience on matters of safety issues calls for punishment.
And if that means a sore backside, then so be it. Do it, make a good job of it, and be done with it. Your daughter is one lucky little girl in that she will not be the next one in the news as having been swept away and her body found down stream..
I'm sure she wasn't thrilled with the results of her misbehavior, but thats the way it should be. Some of the most important lessons we lean in life are uncomfortable..
I just may have to start visiting here again from time to time.

11:52 AM  
Blogger Becky C. said...

Annonymous,

Glad to have you back--but don't strain your self.

The blog is actually now much more popular than before the xenophobic folks fled.

~Becky

11:54 AM  
Blogger Jon said...

Becky, your delibertely avoiding the genital exposure question regarding children who are conscious of their own sexuality.

Hiding behind motherhood and diaper changing avoids the age and gender issue with sexuality quite well. I dont' understand why you avoid adressing sexual humiliation of pre and post pubescent teens? I must assume you believe as a mother that couldn't happen with a son or it's perfectly acceptable to sexually punish young male ego.

I'm finished too as your denial says more. I guess I'll have to wait for that long expose you promise on the subject some day.

1:26 PM  
Blogger Becky C. said...

Jon--I'd rather just let you have the last word.

Lets drop it.

~Becky

4:03 PM  
Blogger wendy said...

in matters of safety i think a spanking is often warranted. however, i just want to go on the record as being against pulling any male or female child's pants down. my ex husband and i got in a major argument over this years ago. he was threatening to do that to my son and i wasn't having it. my kids have only had a couple of spankings a piece and they are hardly brats. they are well behaved and they do good in school. i don't attribute those things to the fact that they have been spanked before.. they have structure in their life. something i didn't have growing up. i was spanked frequently with a wooden spoon. it didn't make me behave... in fact, my little brother and i acted out more.. negative attention was better than nothing at all. after my mom's divorce and subsequent remarriage she wasn't very attentive to our emotional needs. i often took my anger out on my little brother. of course my experience with spanking might have been different had my emotional needs been meet..

11:30 AM  
Anonymous dawngrrl said...

I apologize for coming in on this so late. However, my 2 cents are firing off in my head and they just wont stay put.

Jon, you are an exception not a rule. I read as much of your commenting as I could, and without even knowing you or hearing or reading any more, I can easily pass on the opinion that you have zero objectivity on this issue and are left with some significant unresolved feelings and thoughts on the subject. Rightfully so perhaps, but the point I am making is that your opinions are too awkwardly skewed by your own difficulties in dealing with how you came to identify your spanking fetish. Fetishes are not *made* by an action or an experience, they are created by how an individual responds to something or identifies to it, and then how they decide to handle it.

dawngrrl

2:51 PM  
Blogger Jaycee said...

Thanks for participating in this week's All women blogging carnival.

I think you were totally right in approaching the mother and kid who stole that thing from the shop. I dread to think what this kid will be like when he's older if he's allowed to get away with this sort of stuff now.

7:13 PM  
Blogger Patricia Singleton said...

Becky, there is a major difference in the spanking that you gave your daughter and the spanking that Jon's mother gave him. Jon, what your mother did was not normal or healthy. I didn't hear that kind of abuse at all from the spanking the Becky gave her daughter. Jon, you have my compassion. If it is still affecting you this much after all of these years, get some help. I did for the sexual abuse I suffered as a child. There is nothing wrong with getting help.

10:31 PM  
Blogger Becky C. said...

Dawn, Jon is a nice guy who has been a longtime online friend. He is also always very nice to me.

But it is too bad he is so obssessed with spanking fetishes.

First of all, it is not a real big deal. I have certainly admitted to having a bit of spanky in me. Madonna has played "Hanky Spanky" in every tour for the past two decades. Howard Stern has it in every other radio broadcast. And I actually think every person (at least every women) likes, at least a little bit of erotic spanking at times.

But it is just a totally differnet thing than discipling a child. There is no pleasure in that for anyone.

And there is no evidence that spanking a child causes them to have this fetish as adults--and if that is a remote possible side effect--it is not really all that awful.

I know that the spanking I gave my daughter in this instance (and like I said the pants down hairbrush smacking was an exceptional thermonuclear punishment) has made a big impression--and I would be willing to bet good money I don't ever have to worry about her wandering off in that gully and possibly drowning. I also believe she will think twice before deciding that when I give explicit instructions they might be optional.

And I guess if someday, somehow, this causes her to like to have her boyfriend or girlfriend slap her bottom I don't really care.

~Becky

10:38 PM  
Anonymous dawngrrl said...

Smiles, yes thats exactly the point. It doesnt matter. It sounds like Jon feels like his fetish is "bad", negative, so thats how he associates with it. Liking to get bent over a knee myself now and again is positivly delightful. I dont think one precludes the other is all. Jon I think you might find yourself comfortable with diffeneces on the subject if his werent affecting you so deeply. My point isnt to be brash at all or disrespectful, its simply to say I don't think they are related. A spanking does not a freak make, niether does having a spanking fetish.

Best Regards,
Dawngrrl

1:33 PM  
Anonymous dawn said...

My brother was one of the firefighters working with the twelve-year-old girl that day. He called me (I'm in Flag) to tell me to watch him on the news.

Those are scary things. The water moves so dang fast. You were right to be scared for her.

7:47 PM  
Anonymous Nathan Pannbacker said...

I've read this and broadly felt I wasn't qualified to speak up. My father believed in corporeal punishment, but from the earliest, I always felt he was arbitrary, unfair, and brutish. This feeling was reinforced dramatically on every occasion I offered moral justifications or yelled about how evil his actions were while he was doing it.

I was a precocious child. I knew what I was saying. It fits to this day, and I've never forgiven him.

Yet the evil part was the arbitrary nature of it and the fact that he spurned actual discussion. Any child who has the willpower and determination to screech about ethics while being spanked is obvious smart enough to be talked to.

My father was wrong not for spanking me but for failing to talk about it. The only times he actually talked at all - either before or after - he was fundamentally gerontocratic, rejecting the concept of an eight-year old with ethical convictions guiding his actions.

Yet I'm the same person I was. I've learned more but my basic ethos has not changed in the intervening ten years. To this day he has never understood that I'm a deeply ethical individual.

Anyways, back on subject of why I felt unqualified to reply. I condemned my father, but I can't condemn corporeal punishment in general. Since I've no experience with it being done the "right" way but feel intuitively that a "right" way exists, I simply refrain from comment.

One comment already given does motivate me to comment though. NEVER try to take a treasured object from your child.

My father did that to me once with a book. I was reading it. He tried to criticize me for something I'd done that day in school. I do not remember the specifics, but it had been something to do with one of the teachers, who had been tormenting me. (Never underestimate how cruel someone can be without laying a finger on you.) I gave him a short explanation of the action and exactly how it fit into my system of ethics. The whole explanation was probably three sentences and though I can't remember the words, I felt proud rather than guilty of my action, as it had been fundamentally moral. Rather than either accept or dispute this explanation, he demanded I pay attention to him, for I hadn't stopped reading at all.

I stopped for a few moments and looked up at him. He started ranting. I went back to reading. Listening and reading were not mutually exclusive, but I wouldn't have gone back to my book if I'd judged his words (yells) to have any actual worth. Since they still didn't address the ethics of my explanation, I didn't find them to. He demanded I stop reading again and I looked up at him once more and said, "I won't." He insisted with an 'or else' and I said straight-facedly, "Will you attack me?" It was a challenge, not a question, as at that time I felt he was morally bankrupt.

As testament to how right I was, he didn't even hesitate. He said he would and did. He overpowered me and wrenched the book away, throwing it out the door. He had this wild-eyed look about him and kept mumbling something about my challenging his authority.

I never forgave him. That was four years ago. I demanded an admission of fault later that night, the next day, and three days later. I am still waiting.

Never sieze your children's possessions.

9:38 PM  
Blogger Kristin said...

Wow, not only a pretty incredible post, Becky, but amazing comments as well. (I did get a little lost going through Jon's, though...) I've struggled with the spanking issue over the past 12+ years of being a mom with each of my kids. I've had to use different discipline methods with each due to their personalities and other factors, and it gets overwhelming at times. (Spanking is effective with one but totally ineffective with another, whereas timeout is perfect for one, but taking away possessions is the only thing that will get through to the other, etc.) It gets even more complicated when you have a kid with a neurological disorder. In any case, I've always believed that parents should go with whatever works for their family. Looking back on my childhood, where there was spanking (my mom used a gigantic dictionary on bare bottom), it was the verbal punishment that was always more effective, long-lasting, and ultimately the most damaging.
Great blog, by the way!!
Best,
Kristin
http://ppdsurvivor.blogspot.com

11:41 AM  
Anonymous Billy said...

I think ten is a bit young for a bare bottom spanking with a hairbrush. But then again, I agree totally with the "thermonuclear" status you've given it, so maybe the brush is needed to make sure the message of your disapproval registers.

You're clearly a conscientious parent trying to do your best for your child, and there's not exactly an overabundance of those these days. My own mother only ever threatened to spank, even when we both knew I deserved it. Consequently, I grew up without ever properly learning the all-important lesson of Actions & Consequences.

It may take a while, but somewhere down the road your daughter will thank you for giving her your guidance. And if there's a more purely natural form of corrective education than bare bottom spanking, I have yet to hear of it.


Billy

11:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Something I'm curious about, Becky. Roughly ten years ago, there was a Becky Chan who toured the various online spanking forums relating her conversion from anti-spanking to pro. The family'd been on vacation and her two young daughters had gotten so obstinate that she finally paddled their bare bottoms and won the day.

I saw that story over and over, and I've also encountered you on assorted Yahoo maternal spanking forums. The chronology is a bit puzzling, though. Where did this latest ten-year-old daughter come from, because I'm sure you're the Becky Chan who took to bottom paddling back in the 90s?

11:37 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can't say it any better than Jon did but I will add my own two cents. Kids around the rest of the industrialized world get into trouble and yet most of them are not hit because it is against the law in their countries. We are one of the last countries to allow adults to hit kids all in the name of discipline.
What do we do when a disabled person, elderly person or animal does something we don't like? It's against the law to hit or mistreat any of those vulnerable groups. Yet, we are allowed to hit people that are half our size. There is no justification a parent can give for hitting their child - it's all about power and control. Hitting a child has repercussions that last a lifetime with the number one repercussion being that they become adults who lack compassion for other adults and for children as is evidenced by most of the other posts.

As for the Bible, Spare the rod and spoil the child is not in the bible. The admonition by Solomon to discipline children was given at a certain time in history to a specific people who were under the law. The new testament teaches us about mercy, compassion and forgiveness towards one another. Neither Jesus nor his disciples ever taught adults to mistreat children in any way. In fact, Jesus teaches us to never mistreat a child.
Be loving and understanding to your child and maybe someday when you are old and feeble and looking for love and understanding from your adult child, you will get it.

3:50 PM  
Blogger Becky C. said...

If a couple of you anonymous folks are wondering why your comments are not here:

First, this topic has been beaten to death, excuse the pun.

Second, we don't need any more tid bits from anonymous commenters, who are untraceable.

If a legitimate person comes up and makes a decent remark, whether they agree with me or not, I'll post it.

But not all this anonymous sideswiping.

~Becky

2:38 PM  
Blogger Brucie said...

Not sure why you won't admit to being the same zealously pro-spanking Becky who dominated the forums of practically every Yahoo spanking group you joined. I know you were interested in Lexan paddles, and I also know you believed wholeheartedly in spanking on the bare bottom.

I saw you so often going on about spanking, and I clicked on your Yahoo 360 page, and I know it's you. Fact is, you've been thermonuclear-inclined for a long time where spanking is concerned. This Wal-Mart incident wasn't some departure from the norm.

I don't have any problem at all with your well-documented belief in traditional discipline. Trying to make out here that you're somebody else in that respect is where you lose me.

9:27 AM  
Blogger Becky C. said...

Your keen investigative skills were really not necessary. This has never been a secret. The Yahoo page is listed on my blogroll. And the old Yahoo blog is frequently mentioned here.

Several of the commenters here (including some of the detractors on this issue) are readers from the old blog--which also overtly links this blog and invites readers to come to the new blog.

In fact this particular incident was a "Thermonuclear Punishment" I do not punish much, when I do I usually spank. And this one was a severe one.

But, yes I am unabashedly in favor of corporal punishment of kids. I think it is an important of raising kids.

I have made the argument on the old blog, and here as well--and I will again.

Find something worthwhile to moan about.

~Becky

11:23 AM  
Anonymous Adam Moro said...

OK, I'm going to go out on a limb and give my opinion (which may not mean much to most of you considering I don't have children). I've heard both sides but don't think it's so cut and dry. Though I didn't read through all the comments, one commenter mentioned that being spanked didn't deter him from being (mildly) devious. Well, ok then – he seems to think spanking works based on his own experiences. I was spanked too and personally I can't remember if it worked or not. One thing I know for sure is that is put fear in me. So in a sense, it worked. But (and I'm not one to toot my own horn) I was smart enough to know the spankings wouldn't happen as long as I didn't get caught. So in a sense, it also didn't work. That said, I'm not sure if it's as easy as it works or not. Kids usually know when they're about to get spanked, right (I remember I did)? It's that moment in their decision making process that I would think needs adjustment (ie. Why did they choose to do it when they knew it was wrong and how can I help them make the right decision next time?). I'm not sure spanking is always the answer. I'm sure in many cases it is as in many it's not.

5:37 PM  
Anonymous Marie said...

I do believe that hitting a child (and that includes slapping, spanking, or whatever) unfairly and arbitrarily tends to turn the child into a violent and unfair being. If, from the start of your life, you experience arbitrary and unfair violence, it is likely that you'll perpetuate such violence.

Thus, to me, spanking is acceptable only if applied if a fair and balanced manner. Balance means that the punishment should be in proportion to the offense. Fairness means that one should not punish a child for actions he couldn't know were inappropriate, and that prohibitions and orders should appear to be rationally motivated and not arbitrary demands from the parents.

My mother had a policy to postpone serious spanking until she had calmed down. Irate people aren't fair and balanced.

Example: If you had not insisted your child should not play in the gully, it would have been very inappropriate for you to slap her for it. A girl her age cannot be expected to fully understand the consequences of rainstorms she has never experienced.

Example: When I told my daughter not to play near the oven, or with electrical wires, and so on, I explained to her that the oven could burn her, and that mishandling of electricity could cause her harm, or even start a fire that could endanger the whole family.

1:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Becky, you sound like a fucking idiot to me. You know what else the Bible says besides beating children with rods? It says anybody who works on Sunday should be stoned to death.

Don't be a retard and stop raising your kids based on a book of bullshit.

11:22 PM  

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